In this week's webinar, Dr. Klaper, Dr. Miller, and Dr. Marbas answer questions about habit change.
Questions Answered
- (01:00) – Why do we care about changing habits?
- (07:50) – What's needed to create behavior change?
- (10:28) – Developing a growth mindset
- (11:58) – Overcoming the fear of change
- (17:52) – The importance of being mindful
- (22:30) – Facing and dealing with failure
- (27:33) – How can a plant-based diet be affordable?
- (29:20) – Making your new lifestyle enjoyable
- (33:35) – What are some tips to avoid snacking?
- (35:59) – Why is the timing of our meals important?
- (39:18) – Making it about more than just you, considering the animals
- (43:15) – How does fasting fit into the picture of habits and behavior?
- (45:20) – Tips for dealing with social pressures
- (52:27) – Answering people who ask, “Why do you eat like that”?
- (54:00) – How can I prevent muscle loss?
Complete Transcript
Narrator
(00:06)
We are making plant-based lifestyle medicine available to everyone who desires it. With telemedicine, we are removing barriers that prevent many people from accessing this type of care. Lifestyle medicine promotes healthy behaviors. When adapted, individuals can expect improvement and in many cases, reversal of chronic disease.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(00:28)
Just to get started, let me just tell you why I'm really interested in this topic, then I let Dr. Miller and Dr. Klaper go ahead and share their as well. For me, when I started working with patients, I started seeing these really incredible transformation stories, literally people losing 200 pounds. They were eating this horrible Standard American Diet, were 400 pounds. Then they just literally turned their lives around. You see now they're perfect plant-based eaters. They lost all this weight. I'm like, how? How do you do that?
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(01:00)
In my simple mind, I was thinking, there must be some element that I'm missing. How am I going to motivate my patients? How can I learn how to do this? It turned into an ongoing study of behavior change. You guys, there are literally … I can't tell you all these books in my little library or habit change, motivation, all these things and to talk about today because there's so many elements to it. Someone might take that, there might be that little key that might be just enough to help them get started. So that is why I'm excited about that. Dr. Klaper, Dr. Miller, do you have any thoughts and suggestions about any of that?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(01:45)
Sure do. I'm curious to see what Dr. Miller has to say though.
Dr. Chris Miller
(01:50)
Well, okay. I'll go next then. So I am interested in motivation and habit change. It started personally actually. So I'm going to just share personally. My own journey hasn't always been easy. When I'm working with people, and I see those others making the transformation, and people would say to me, “Well, find your purpose.” I was like, “Well, gosh. I'm not really sure what my purpose is.”
Dr. Chris Miller
(02:12)
It's harder than that. I thought, “Well, what if I don't have a big purpose? Maybe it's not big enough.” My own motivation would go up and down. It had its moments where I was so excited and things were going great. Then something would set me off. So I really quite delved into what it takes to be successful. Why were some people being successful and some people were struggling? What was it? What was involved?
Dr. Chris Miller
(02:34)
That was my own personal motivation. It's interesting, like Dr. Marbas, I see the same thing in my practice now. Some people will just go for it, boom, and they got amazing results and were celebrating, and it's awesome. Other people have the journey or it's harder to get started or they're just not seeing the same thing. I can totally relate for one. So it's so important that we figure out what makes the difference, how can we bridge that gap and get everyone to reach their goals even if it's a different technique. Of course, we're all going to be different. I'm always celebrating how unique we all are. So anyway, that's what motivates me. I love this topic because it's so interesting on every level.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(03:14)
Well, yes, I can certainly empathize with all of that. This of course in some ways is the question that hangs over all of us is we have all sort of clinical needs, patience compliance or noncompliance and such, which implies all sorts of naked things that are still here and all of that. But those of us who see the power of plant-based intrusion, and it's stunning transformations on every level, biological, psychological etc. that people go through. Human nature, you would think, just tell them what to do and they'll do it, and everything will be fine, and case closed here. But humans don't even behave that way.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(04:04)
Then Dr. Miller was discussing, there's a bell-shaped curve of people who respond in their various ways. Some people on one tail, boy, they just jump right on, like, “What are you? Rock, set me.” They just do it, don't look in the rear view mirror. They're exciting and motivational for all of us. Then we got some on the other end there that they're facing diabetes and they've had mini strokes. They're the guy with the sickles. You can see them standing in the corner of the exam room, behind this person. Yet they come back the week after, “Doc, I just can't this. I've gained three pounds this week.”
Dr. Michael Klaper
(04:50)
It's frustrating for everybody. It's frustrating for the doctor. It's frustrating for the patients. These are the ones that's just put a big log in the middle of the road there. How do we help these people? What do they need to hear? We'll drill down, and then I'm sure over this hour, they're the old pre-contemplation stage. There are some people who just aren't ready. We all unfold at the rate we unfold. You may get some people who are really in the beginning of their journey. They are so stuck in their habits and their fears and their social structure. Everybody else at home is eating this way, and money is an issue. Then they've heard bad things of the only one vegetarian and they died. All these things are things that we need to take patient's hand and help them make some positive steps.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(05:47)
Of course, they challenged me always. You can't let that slightest note of judgment sneak into your voice. There can't be a verbal finger wave there. You're here to help these people in whatever way that your … It's more, “How can I help? What can I do to make this easier for you?” We'll talk about those non-confrontational ways to help the patient. But I'll just start by acknowledging what acknowledging way do you pull a problem that this is. It takes delicacy and patience because they fall off the wagon again and again. They only care what happens, they go back, and I'm not being pejorative here. Just there's such a powerful pull that people fall off again and again. You have to be frustrated doing that, as long as they really want to get better. That's the real key.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(06:41)
My high school basketball says, “You got to want it. You got it want it. Make that basket,” if you don't want to, then nothing happens. It starts finding out really what the patient want to do and the changes they're willing to make. I'll stop.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(06:58)
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(06:58)
With that right now, go ahead.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(07:00)
You hit on so many important factors. But I'll just share here, one of our friends from over the pond is saying that, Bob says, “You'll be pleased to know my weight has started to decrease three pounds this week. That is awesome. So this is what I would consider for me as a physician. When you see every single patient that you're working with, and in a general practice as a physician, there can be really frustrating moments because you're writing a script. Nobody gets better, whatever. But then suddenly you start understanding the elements of how you can incorporate things into your practice, lifestyle medicine. People start getting better. They come back, “I'm stopping my medications.” They get better. That is such a wonderful feeling and motivation for us physicians to continue and be constantly pushing and moving forward.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(07:50)
There's a couple of things here that I'd like to really just point. There's a doctor, he's a PhD, BJ Fog. I don't know. Some of you may have read his recent books called Tiny Habits. So it's really interesting to understand these mental elements here. But you need a couple of things to create behavior change. You need motivation, like the coach says, “You got to want it. You got to want to put the work in.” There's the motivation. You want to be a doctor, you got to go to a medical school, you've got to want it. Here's your motivation. Now, that motivation will wane in, wax and wane. That's just human nature, right?
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(08:25)
You have to also have a prompt. What's the prompt to change? It can be anything. It could be a health scare. It could be someone mentioned, a great motivation is ethics, animal suffering. They see suffering around them. They want to partake in helping that. Then you also need the ability. What I mean by ability is the how to or the knowledge to do that. So I can give someone knowledge, it's not enough. It's not enough for me to hand you a book and say, “Here's the book, read it. Do it.” Now, if there's the element of prompting and they're highly motivated, that might happen. But at the same time, that's where as doctors come in, we need to be helping someone see okay, where is their motivation gauge in that. There's a sense to that.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(09:05)
As humans, we have little kids, right? We understand there are going to be moments that there's very little motivation for a child to behave. Then there's certain elements that are more increased. There's going to be some things there to use. But I'd love to hear anything that people have found there was their point. Tell us where or ask a question if you have any questions about how to get started, where to get started, where you're frustrated because that's really where we fit in. We've talked to so many thousands and thousands of patients that I think experience will be helpful. That certainly is it. Chris, can you give an example? Because you always talk about, I'm always looking at yourself. I'm going to talk about myself to you and girl scout thin mint cookies. It's a whole nother element. But that seems to be my Achilles' heel. Can you share a little bit about your behavior changes? Because you have some really interesting stories.
Dr. Chris Miller
(09:57)
I had done a complete 180. So people who knew me before, I'm completely different about it. In so many levels, change has to happen. For me, and I see this in my patients too so it's so interesting, I think because I learned it that now I'm very hyper attuned and well aware of it. But there are things that can hamper you and slow down your motivation and get in the way of the healing. For example, I'll just give a couple though. I'm going to give two right now.
Dr. Chris Miller
(10:28)
One of them is we want to make sure that we're all in the growth mindset. So what does that term mean? It's a difference between striving for perfection, where until I 100% reverse my lupus, I'm a failure. Or if my patient hasn't gotten off their blood pressure medicine, this isn't working for them, right? There's a difference between perfection and getting the results and striving to see improvements, improvements along the way. So in celebrating with what Laurie was talking about, celebrating those improvements, celebrating every little victory, celebrating that you did it for this week, that you ate three good meals each day. Maybe your blood pressure went down even a smidgen or maybe it didn't yet. We don't know. We have to let go of the result, we can't control that. We can just celebrate that we did what we wanted to do.
Dr. Chris Miller
(11:17)
Each night, I actually journal one, two, three things I'm celebrating. So that's helped me change into my own growth mindset and celebrating now the progress and that I'm persevering. I'm not going to give up on this. I never gave up on myself. I finally reached the point that I needed to. So I'm celebrating that and also noticing when things go wrong, that that doesn't mean I'm a failure either. That means that it's something to learn from. So I'd work with my patients that we celebrate what went wrong, maybe why did we splurge that day or why are we eating too much at night now and our plan wasn't to do that. What's happening? To learn from it.
Dr. Chris Miller
(11:58)
We can start exploring, are we hungry? Are we eating a stressed out, stress eating, emotional eating habit? So that's the growth mindset. The second thing real quick that I would say that's really helped me is somehow there's not so much negativity but like fear. Fear of, I don't know, it's the weirdest thing but you'd think all I want to do is get healthy. But somehow there's a fear of that. There's a fear to reach the final push line. Again, I see this in my patients sometimes where we're really going for it. But there's something holding them back.
Dr. Chris Miller
(12:33)
It maybe the story they're telling themselves from when they were kids or something that has hampered them or holding on to what the life that they have right now, even though they don't like it and they want to change, holding on to that. I don't know if fear is exactly the right word, but I can see that in people. It's something that I also worked through with myself and realize that there's something holding me back. So I worked on changing my story, changing how I thought of things, and how I perceive things. Through all of that course, things just got better and better and it opened up. I got healthier and healthier. Anyway, those are some of the little tips that I think have been really helpful for me. I really worked on those with my patients.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(13:14)
Awesome.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(13:17)
A lot of advisors, just have very important stuff. In fact I want to put a pin in a couple of things that went by. I want to know what you guys, how you deal with emotional eating, cravings, late night eating. We got it we deal with those themselves. But just a general motivation. I'm a nuts and bolts kind of elementary guy. So I try to incorporate the patient in here. It's their lives, their decisions, when they're pushing down that cart in the supermarket aisle or they're there in the restaurant. What are they going to put in their basket? What are they going to … What are they going to really order? So I'll ask them, “What's your understanding of what's happening in your body?” If they're overweight, high blood pressure, whatever.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(14:10)
What's your understanding? Where does food fit into this for you? What are they really understanding? Tell me, what's a good meal for you, what's a bad meal? How does it look to you? To incorporate that and get the words coming out of their mouth and understand their understanding of it. Hear themselves saying that, right, rice and beans and greens, fruits and vegetables. Those are all good things for me. Yes. Right. So-
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(14:46)
A lot of times poor patients don't even understand. They were told, “Oh, you're going to have diabetes forever.” This is a perfect example. Let's talk about type two diabetes. When they come to see me like, “How can I get better? You're telling me I can get better when everybody's telling me I'm going to have diabetes, I'm going to suffer heart disease, kidney failure, blindness, lose my limbs, and I'm going to die from this 10 years earlier than everyone else.” So that is what they're told. But that doesn't have to be the case. Then it's like, well, did anyone ever tell you why you got diabetes to begin with? They're like, “Well, everyone in my family has diabetes.”
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(15:20)
Okay, so you have some genetics that may lead you to develop diabetes earlier than someone else. But what really is going on inside of you that led to diabetes? They don't know. So I break it down into some really simple explanations and they go, “Oh.” I said, “Now let's look at what happens when we introduce a whole plant based diet.” We decrease stress, whatever. That's what happens, your body wants to heal. I think then what we're doing is we're removing that fear, what you're describing, right? We're removing that fear, and we're giving them hope, because we're literally taking away the unknown and the mystery of I'm always going to have this. That's why people get scared because they just don't know what that the fear is, is just in their heads, right?
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(16:04)
Because what's fearful to one person may not be fearful to another one, it's what's going on in communication in our head. So if we explain that this is not the truth. The reality is if I give patients plants, majority will get better very quickly. It might take a little longer, some will reverse. That is the truth. The body wants to heal itself. Then that's really helping. So I think hope and fear is, they're like vectors, right, you know what I mean? The less fear you had, the more hope you give, that works really, really well. I just really want to talk about, you mentioned about the emotional cravings and stuff.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(16:38)
So it's an interesting thing. I think you have to understand where the patient's coming from. So I ask a lot of questions about how it starts. Some may say they had negative connotations with eating growing up. Maybe parents use food as a punishment or positive reinforcement for positive behavior. Then they just learned that that's the only thing they control or they've been abused. People go hide and that's one thing they control which leads to other things. So these really big serious type habits, smoking, drug abuse, overeating, emotional, it all goes back to the emotion because emotion is driving the habit.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(17:16)
So if we can look at what that is, and make people mindful, that's why I love Dr. Judd Brewer's work in the Craving Mind. Huge fan. He's a good friend and plant-based too. So if you guys don't have that book, you got to get the book. Eat Right Now app, I get my patients on that is as much as possible. He created that, he's got some amazing researches, an MD, PhD, just one of the most brilliant minds I love to talk to him. He's talking about becoming aware of the habit loop. So if you don't know what a habit loop is, it's an automatic thing we do. You have a cue or a trigger, you have the response, which is your behavior and then you have this reward.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(17:52)
Okay, so a lot of times when you look at changing of habits, they say remove the cues, change the trigger, change your environment, which I'm all for, it makes it easier. Then the behavior or substitute the behavior, do this. That's really hard because you're having these a lot of willpower to do this. Repetition honestly, I don't think makes habits. It's the emotion that drives the habit to make you keep doing it, it's not going to be, “I want to slog through and in 21 days, I'm going to have a habit.” I don't think so. Most people will give up by then. If you have the emotion and the positive reinforcement and the celebration, like Chris was saying, and the growth mindset, you will get those habit changes.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(18:28)
But anyway, but Dr. Judd Brewer's work focuses on changing the reward by making it less of a reward just by being mindful of what it is. So it's really an interesting, he's got some amazing tools, they're very simple. When you understand and you're mindful and present in the moment of when you're going to the refrigerator you're looking, you're not just grabbing something and eating it. But you have this moment of realization. You're like, “Wait, why am I at the refrigerator? Why am I opening the store?”
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(18:56)
You do some investigation? Just some gentle objective questions. Nothing emotional, not beating yourself up, just like, why am I at the refrigerator? Am I bored? Am I hungry? You check in with yourself. When you realize that, it gives you power. The reward becomes less. Guess what? That habit just kind of dissolves away. So there's other ways to build in, build positive habits, but that is one of the most powerful tools I've seen to actually disengage with a negative habit. So that's how I approach with my patients. Chris, do you have any suggestions or thoughts there?
Dr. Chris Miller
(19:28)
I love that, Laurie, that is a great tool. I have actually downloaded that app and used it myself. I also share it with my patients. So it's Dr. Judd Brewer, Eat Right Now app. But yeah, I have a couple, just a couple little things to add to that. So one thing which we've already touched on, but we're all different, so we're all going to have different reasons we're eating, different challenges we're overcoming and so while being mindful is enough for some people, and they're going to do exactly what Dr. Marbas just described, and that's really going to help them bring awareness. I see that in their patients in my patients. But some people, that's not enough. So some people have really strong food addictions.
Dr. Chris Miller
(20:13)
If they have even a little bit of something, they just go crazy with it, and they can't really control it. For those people, I work really hard to help them establish more set rules where that might not work for someone else, someone else doesn't like that they need a little bit more freedom. They don't want to be so strict, but a highly food addicted person. There's a survey that you can take and see how you rank on it. So someone who ranks nine or 10, highly food addicted, that person's mindfulness is not going to be enough for them. So for them, we're going to put guidelines. Okay, we're going to have breakfast at this time, lunch at this time, dinner at this time, then the kitchen's closed.
Dr. Chris Miller
(20:52)
There's certain foods, and each person is different. So each person is going to come up with their own plan. What is your food addicted, what are you addicted to? For some of my plant-based eaters, it could be dates. It's not only just Standard American Diet food, so someone who sits down and eats a whole container of dates, just because that's how they are. For that person, we're going to say, okay, no dates in the house for you. Right? I would never say that to someone else who has one while they're cooking, and it's totally fine.
Dr. Chris Miller
(21:20)
So I individualize the plan and try to figure out what are their challenges. Are there certain foods if they just can't stop? Once they start, they just can't stop and then it keeps them cycling. I also have personal experience with that. I scored a 10 out of that survey, 10 out of 10 for food addictions. I know myself as well, so I know that if I get into something, I will just keep going crazy. But if I have none, I don't even think about it. Right? It gets rid of the willpower, oh my gosh, I don't want to have any more. I don't want to do it. I don't want to eat it. That's gone. As soon as I get that out of my house and a couple days passed and I haven't had it, I don't even miss it. I don't touch chocolate, but I don't need to I don't think of it anymore.
Dr. Chris Miller
(21:59)
Whereas before if I had even a little piece of dark chocolate, I would go crazy and just want the whole bar and another bar or to make some chocolate or something. So it actually is not hard. I have a whole program I work out with my patients to kind of build it in. So they're not fearful of letting go foods which that can be really challenging, too. So that is what I add. Then adding the mindfulness to it has been just the cherry that I needed on top of that because it's really taking it to the next level. So that was such a great tool.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(22:27)
Absolutely.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(22:30)
If I can add a little bit more, those are all just core, excellent touch points to include here. When you see the patient back in person back, they come in with the hangdog Look at that guy fell off the wagon. I really blew it this week. My daughter-in-law was in town and we went out for dinner. Everything just went downhill from there. Part of it is they think, “I failed you, doctor, you had high hopes for me. I let you down. I let myself down.” Just feeling lectured.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(23:13)
So what to do with that? One thing is in the old days, pre-COVID, I used to give them a hug and say, “Listen,” I said, “It's wonderful. I'm glad to hear this.” Because almost everybody falls off the wagon once or twice. Good. Let's rewind your life to that moment. Let's focus in on what happened. Let's play that moment in slow motion here. What was it that that pulled you off the wagon? Before we get to that one, just taking my regular standard medical history. The most important question I asked is who does the shopping and the cooking in your house?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(23:59)
Who actually brings the stuff back in your house if that makes those meals?Bbecause that might be where the where the hole in the dike is, the person who's doing the shopping has a junk food cabinet. So with the stuffs in the house, everybody eats it. So you got to plug that hole which is if you don't bring them out, people won't need it.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(24:23)
Then who does the cooking? I live alone and I just order in. Is that the reality of it? Again find out. Is money in issue? Can they afford? Of course everybody can afford rice and beans, they are cheap. Is it a real money problem? Then being a doctor, is there a background depression here? Are they using food to fill up a sorrowful hold there? By seeing early dimensions of shopping possibly. Some of them are just in denial, “I don't have a problem.” But they're sitting there with that huge waistline and I check the levels.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(25:12)
So anyway, I'm the most coordinating. Who's doing the cooking and shopping? Clean that up. Then let's take a slow motion look at what happened and see if there's anything we could have done to change that scene or to keep you from getting in that scene next time or what was really being filled there? If they do … The most important thing, if they fall the way, and they eat the lemon cream pie and the cheeseburger, okay, they did. Okay, tomorrow is another day. You get another chance. Sunrises and your liver clears mostly that junk out of your blood. Okay, what are you going to eat today? Let's look at what really matters. Put it in the rear view mirror there and let's get on with a really good eating day here. All is forgiven. Let's have a salad.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(25:55)
All is forgiven, let's have a salad. I love it.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(25:55)
All right.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(26:03)
Yeah, I think that's really good because you do have patients who respect you and they're encouraged by you. Then when they quote-unquote fall off the wagon, they feel depressed and unsuccessful and not worthy. It's just like all the other failures, I'm not going to succeed. So you have to halt the negative talk. That is key. Number one is like let's stop right there. First of all, like you said, we almost celebrate the failures because it's from failures that we can go further.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(26:31)
So when you look at your failure, like what happened? What was it? Just like you said, you're investigating it, you're asking questions, and then look at the reward. What was the reward for doing that? How did you feel? So if you can tie into that emotional too, it's like I didn't feel well, I felt bloated. It's like, “Okay, so the next time that you have this urge or craving, let's look at what the reward was.” I want you to reinvestigate, like, “Well, I know what's going to happen, but I also know what happens when I eat my salad.”
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(26:59)
So those are some things there. Just start just gently asking yourself questions and it comes to the mindfulness aspect of it. It gives them power because they feel powerful when they can understand and investigate and ask those questions and know the answer. It's like it's a whole game changer. I said, all this is is data, guys. It's like looking at your blood sugar. It's just data, and we just look at the data and we make a decision. This is simple, don't worry about it. There's no judgment. We love you. We high five our celebrations. We look at our failures and we celebrate this because we're going to learn and we're going to go further. This is as simple as it gets. So that's really important. I think that was really cool.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(27:33)
Then I did want to mention a tool for the budget. I do get a lot of people asking, it's like, “Well, it's just so expensive to do this plant-based diet and I just don't know,” and blah, blah, blah. It's like first of all, stop buying those prepackaged things, plant-based diet is like the cheapest diet on earth. If you check out Healthy Human Revolution with YouTube, there is literally 16 tips on how to do this on a budget. I also did actually a two series myself. I went and bought it. I broke it down. I found the average from Walmart and how to do this and do literally feed a family of four on $10 a day. I broke it all down for you guys and did that. Feel free to watch that, it's free on YouTube.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(28:12)
But yeah, so that's the key is just really creating those tools, but I wanted to share some of the comments that we're getting here. I see some really great ones. Bob says, from the UK again, so excited. We also had someone from Israel, which is really cool.
Dr. Chris Miller
(28:24)
Awesome.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(28:25)
I know, it's awesome. “My motivation happened in January. Marian and I watched Forks Over Knives. I don't think we had eaten meat or dairy for more than a few times since. Last night, we watched What the Health and that, again, is motivational,” which is phenomenal. So congratulations, Bob. That is awesome. That's to be celebrated. We should have like a little celebration. I know Chris is like a fist bumper and a hugger. So I've been around Chris and I've noted that. So that's what it is. Maybe it's playing a song that you feel really like …
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(28:53)
I know when I'm low motivation to run because I try to. I love running but there are days you're just like … So there is a song that I play, and sometimes it will change. It just like I'm on it, here we go because I love the feeling of what happens when I'm running and moving forward. There's some other ideas there. Then another question was my biggest problem is that I'm not a big lover of veggies, but I think my tastes are changing slowly.
Dr. Chris Miller
(29:19)
Excellent.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(29:20)
Yeah, and I have a quick answer. Then I'll let you guys when you have people who are just like, “No, I don't like my vegetables.” Number one, that's okay. So eat the ones you do like, and then there's some interesting science of 15 to 18 taste, you can start incorporating things. The other thing is using homemade plant-based dips and sauces to cover it up and sneak things into soups and stuff. There's lots of ways to change the food. You're still getting it in, but you don't necessarily have to have that taste. But that is a few of my suggestions, but do you guys have any others?
Dr. Chris Miller
(29:58)
That's awesome, Laurie. Those are really good, great tips. I do a lot of the same type of thing. So just to add. So if someone really doesn't like fruits or vegetables and just isn't used to eating them and really is sort of hesitant to go there, and that's what's holding them back. So I do a similar thing where one, I say it is okay. I have a list that's the colors of the rainbow, and there's fruits and vegetables in each color. I say, “Well, take a look at this. See if there's anything you like, even one thing from each color. You get to pick it, it doesn't matter at all to me what it is, and try to start incorporating that in.”
Dr. Chris Miller
(30:34)
So we work week at a time. So now they're adding a little bit in. They're trying something new, trying different ones. So that's one trick we'll use and just gradually very slowly start progressing. Waiting for those taste buds to change just like you said, as we go very slowly. Two is hide it. So if you're making a soup, you can blend some vegetables into a soup. You don't even taste it, right? Blend it into the salad dressing itself or cover it with a good homemade dressing so that it's delicious. I personally don't really love vegetables either. Now I do, but I love all stuff that I cook with it. So that's two.
Dr. Chris Miller
(31:08)
Three is think about the results. So we've all done stuff that we don't really love, right? We don't love … You want the results, so you go through the journey. So this is something where you ask yourself, What do you want? Well, I want my health. But what does that take? That takes eating vegetables. All right, well, how can I get there? So you start figuring out there's no one right way to do it, though, not at all. The other things I would tell people, I tell my patients, it's a myth to think that everybody loves vegetables and that everyone starts on a plant-based diet loving vegetables. We all grew up in the Standard American Diet. None of us, I shouldn't say none, but a lot I should say none but a lot of us like myself. I didn't eat a ton of vegetables. We've all kind of made the transformation and made the change. So those are a few of my tricks.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(31:58)
You guys are the cooks. Those are some really good ideas. Yeah, I totally agree. Make up a big minestrone soup and just load it up with the veggies. They all kind of recede in the back. They're still there. But it's the tomato sauce, tomato broth and all that really dominates it. One old times you can do is make up a salad, those things you should be eating and throw it in a blender do and blend it. Do a blended salad and season it up a little bit of Bragg's liquid aminos, a little cayenne, have a little fun with the taste. Then you can sprinkle it in, you can pour it on your veggies, you can do all sorts of things, make your salad dressing. You blend it in, blend it up, put it in the soups, it makes the soups nice and creamy. Where there's a will, there's a way but you got to want to.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(32:46)
Exactly.
Dr. Chris Miller
(32:49)
Love that. Yep.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(32:49)
Yeah, absolutely. I would say that's really good because I'm not a huge fan. I have to be in the mood for salad. Some people are really surprised like, “You don't love salads?” No, not really. For me, I just sit and look at that and go that is a lot of chewing and a lot of work, and I am busy. This is how my brain works.
Dr. Chris Miller
(33:08)
Of course you are.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(33:10)
I mean, I went to medical school with three little kids they were five, three and 10 months. I was like I learned to be very quick. I was active duty Air Force. I'm like, “I don't have time to be eating those huge salad.” I know it's good. So I discovered soups, like you said, blended smoothies, whatever I can do to get it in me. It just happened to work well for the family. Some people are saying sauce and smoothie are the secret which is great. But again, some interesting questions here was, “Any tips or tricks or guidelines help folks who struggle with snacking throughout the day, including middle of the night?” So snacking. Do you guys have any suggestions or thoughts on the snacking component?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(33:50)
Well, of course, it all depends on what you're snacking on and how many apples slices can you eat? Exactly right. Second, blueberries, pop them in. Berries are the best snacking food without question. Mango season, a mango that's so intense, the flavors. If you have 15 mango chunks or watch. They're all fiber or as long as they're whole fruits. That's the best way. You don't want to shovel a handful of cashews while you're eating the fruits. But as long as you stick on the fruit side, you'll be pretty much okay, again whole foods are the key because they're fiber and water. Don't beat yourself up about it over, but pick the ones that give the most deep satisfaction per snack.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(34:37)
Absolutely. Chris, snacking?
Dr. Chris Miller
(34:39)
That's a tough one. It's a really, really, really, really, really really, really tough one I would say. So whoever made that comment, I'm right there with you. I get that. So I would say yeah, what Dr. Kalper said, of course, I totally agree with that. That's a great, great idea is to eat the berries, right, and have berries in your fridge and be ready with it. So that is a fabulous tip and a trick, and it really works. Two is kind of ask yourself why you're snacking. So one thing that it's not good to do and we know this now from data is that it's not good to be eating all the time, right? This constant grazing type thing, we've kind of gone that way in our generation. We're always so busy. We just graze, and we know how that's not good for us.
Dr. Chris Miller
(35:21)
There's so much that goes into digesting, chewing our foods, creating all the digestive saliva, chewing the or secreting the gastric juices, getting the food down there, secreting all the intestinal juices and all the enzymes there and de-acidifying it, and alkalizing it and moving it through and absorbing the nutrients. Then we got to repair the gut up after we just did the whole process, and now we're eating again. So now we're going through the damage again and now we're eating again. So we've kind of built these habits and so it's really hard to let go of that though. I don't pretend that's easy. I don't downplay it. I don't say, “Oh, all you have to do with this,” because that to me is one of the hardest things I find when we just like eat.
Dr. Chris Miller
(35:59)
Now we have healthy food in our fridge, and so we're like, “Oh well, it's just this is healthy, right?” But is this what we really want to be doing? With healing, especially with autoimmune, when we eat, it can damage the gut a little bit more. So we'll feel the inflammation every time we eat a little bit. So the goal is not to eat more times during the day, it's eat less times during the day but to get all the nutrition that we need, and that's really hard. So I try to help educate people what I just said.
Dr. Chris Miller
(36:27)
So understanding the process and what it's doing to your body every time you're eating, it's not benign and it's not easy on your body at all. So understanding that, hopefully will help you think well gosh, you know what, I really am going to plan my day I'm going to eat. This goes into the next step which is planning like three good meals and maybe one snack, right? Don't go crazy at the beginning, and having set times. If I know I'm having breakfast at 8:00, lunch is at noon. I can make it four hours. So even from craving, I really want to go get some berries or whatever, have an apple, I don't need it right then because luncheis in an hour already or whatever and that can help be helpful.
Dr. Chris Miller
(37:02)
Then maybe your berries, you want that at 4:00 in the afternoon, perfect. That's your time, you're enjoying it. You work, it's been a long day. It helps you through it, you're a little bit hungry, and then dinner is at 6:00. With the schedule, it can really help. Then the last tool that I work out with people because again, this is so hard, but now we have data that it's really, really bad to eat at nighttime. Our insulin isn't as sensitive. Our pancreas isn't secreting it. We're not digesting food, it's going to sit in our guts. It sits there until the morning, it sits in the intestines. It's just really hard in our system. We're not repairing ourselves at night.
Dr. Chris Miller
(37:37)
We're not getting all these wonderful benefits we get at night when we're not eating. So that's usually the first habit I try to work on with people because it's so crucial to repairing your health and long term benefits and being healthy. So I have people work on eating their dinner, and the kitchen is closed. It's closed. It's not an all you can eat buffet. It's not whenever you feel you're in the mood, go grab something. I pictured myself as those yellow tape that you see at a police crime scene. That's my kitchen. As of 7:00 kitchen is closed. I have been when I was first training myself, it'll be 6:55 and I'm in there eating just a little bit more. 7:00 hits, boom, I am strict with it.
Dr. Chris Miller
(38:20)
7:00, I'm done, push it away. If I miss it, and I didn't eat dinner yet. Well, then that night, I sip some water and I'm ready for breakfast the next morning at 8:00 AM. I kept it strict for myself on purpose because it was hard for me as well, and it was so important. I couldn't mess around with that one. I had to stop that late night eating. Then the benefits actually come pretty quickly. So once you do it the first week or two, you may say, “I can't sleep, I'm hungry. I need a snack. I can't sleep.”
Dr. Chris Miller
(38:46)
You will feel that. But after like two weeks, I swear patients, my patients are feeling so much better. They're sleeping better. They're feeling lighter, they're waking up better. Their guts are better, their heartburn is going away. Oh my gosh, the benefits go on and on and on. One of the most powerful tools is to help people stop that snacking at night. So I do just what I just did, I tried to educate people, walk them through it, give them some guidelines, and really help encourage that. Because it's important and it's hard.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(39:18)
Let it just be on the record here that, people who are having trouble staying on the plant-based train there and the cheese or the flowing slips of snack, and I'll just say it once, as an ethical vegan, my life, the animals are always watching. The children are always watching. The planet is always watching. It really does matter. That animal had his throat cut, didn't want that to happen, and the violent steps that you're paying for when you eat that stuff and you purchase it.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(39:54)
It's connected with so much negative energy that I just don't want it in my life. I did it enough for the first 34 years of my life. I don't want to add to it anymore at this point. I'm done with that. That's really what makes it not even an issue, not even a temptation to dip my toe back in animal land there at all. If you are going to snack out, do it on berries. Do it on plant-based foods, they don't scream. The people who need some motivation, open your head and your heart into that aspect of it as well.
Dr. Chris Miller
(40:30)
Beautiful, so beautiful.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(40:34)
Yeah, absolutely. To echo that too, you may start out doing this for health reasons or just because you're like, it's just a better choice and not think about the ethical component, but it does creep in because you can't unlearn all these things. Because now you've opened your mind to eating healthy on a plant-based diet that you're going to start learning all the other elements that come along with the things you're doing, the things, the choices that you make every day, what you put in your mouth not only affects you, but it affects the environment in the animals.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(41:02)
It's gotten to the point now I can't even walk down the cheese aisle or the meat aisle. I mean, it bothers me so intensely, emotionally drives me to just I can't. It's a really interesting thing. I mean, you go, I was 41 when we switched to a plant-based diet. I'll be 50 this year and I'm just sitting here going, it's so interesting. Like you said, the first 34 years. I did the first four decades of my life, and now it's just so interesting over time how that happens. But yeah, I totally agree. So ultimately that would be the most amazing thing, is that everyone can just make the right decision on the ethical basis alone would be amazing.
Dr. Chris Miller
(41:42)
Well, Dr. Klaper, I'm so glad you brought that up just real quick because I often see of my patients that the health is what Laurie just said. The health is what gets you started, but you need something bigger because when that motivation, you start to feel a little better, and that's when people maybe will fall off. So what you said, that's so beautiful, because it's bigger than just you and your health and what you're craving at this moment. When people start thinking that way, it becomes easier to make good decisions. So I love that you brought that up because it's a really, really important point.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(42:12)
Yeah. It can be a turnoff to some people though, so you have to be a little careful. Well, what is their feeling on that? So I would say tread lightly and that's it. But sometimes it's, do you want to be around for your kids to graduate high school? Do you want to walk your daughter down the aisle to marry someone? I use family and those emotional levers because then that's what's going to trickle into the other aspects, but you're exactly right. We do need a higher level. Sometimes we need someone to push us on external motivation.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(42:41)
Dr. Marbas, I'm at the same place you are, walking down the aisle in the meat department at the supermarket. It feels like the pathology department of the veterinary school. You see all these ribs and legs and veterinary parts there. I really don't enjoy being there at all.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(43:01)
Right, exactly. Yes, absolutely. I could keep going. We could just talk about that for hours.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(43:08)
Yes, we can. Yeah, that's after ourselves. That's it.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(43:10)
We'll leave that there. Maybe that's a separate podcast.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(43:13)
It is, it is.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(43:15)
So we've had a couple questions now also about intermittent fasting. They're asking what our thoughts are, some with building habits, what are your thoughts on fasting 16-eight or 14-10. Do you recommend it and share some of the benefits? So I'm a huge fan of intermittent fasting if you can do it. If you want to do it, do it as often as you want. Don't feel you have to be compelled to do it because everybody's doing it and you're going to miss out.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(43:38)
But it goes back to I tend to be a fan of like people, eat like a king in the morning, queen for lunch, and a pauper at dinner. If you can do at 16-eight, great. If you want to fast once a week, great. SO there's nothing wrong with incorporating that in your life, but don't feel compelled or like you failed if you can't do it because of your work schedule or kids, but if maybe it gets squeezed 12 hours of fasting that's actually where you're seeing that benefit, seems to be about the threshold. Absolutely. I'm a huge fan. Of course we have a literal master of the fasting world. Dr. Klaper, any thoughts there?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(44:16)
Well, fasting certainly changes. It changes your head and your taste buds. When I do a three-day fast over a weekend, just Friday, Saturday, Sunday, come Monday, boy, I just want to eat light and clean. I'm feeling so nice and light and clean on the inside. I don't want to eat a bunch of bread and melted vegan cheese tofu. I really really wanted that the salads and the vegetables. So just what we do just a day on juices to come off of that and then it's usually salads, and soups, and greens for a few days. It really does lighten up your taste buds there. I try one every other weekend or once a month, twice a month. Do a little two, day three day water fast, it's safe for everybody once you got some terrible disease and often can motivate your taste buds to keep eating clean the rest of the week.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(45:12)
Absolutely, I think you're exactly right. I know Chris does fasting too. I agree. If you do fast, you feel like you want to eat healthier, lighter, for sure. So a quick question here, Rhonda, who I know she's on the west side of Colorado, she goes, “I appreciate you talking about ways to reach our friends and family. It can be challenging, just different angles and respectfully.” So I think we kind of touched upon this almost with every webinar. Anything you'd like to reiterate that you found successful helping patient navigate the social pressures?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(45:47)
A prophet without honor in your own home. That's the toughest of any overall.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(45:47)
Oh, is it ever.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(45:53)
Oh man. I had a brother, “I'd rather die than eat this way,” and he did, rather than listen to his younger brother. It's so sad and frustrating. So my heart goes out to everyone. I have ideas about it. Chris, when you went plant-based, was your husband onboard?
Dr. Chris Miller
(46:12)
Yeah. So this is a tough one. You guys have the best questions. So thank you, Rhonda, for that one. Yes, I was fortunate, we flew out to New Jersey and sat through Dr. Furman giving a three-day weekend webinar. Troy was right onboard with me. I said, “You don't have to do this with me.” He said, “Well, I'm not going to let you get healthy while I have a heart attack and get cancer later in life.” So the research had made it easy, but it was not easy for the rest of the family. I still have many people in my family who don't pay any attention, don't follow it, have all these other complaints.
Dr. Chris Miller
(46:46)
I see it and for a little while, I tried so hard to help them and that was not good. So that caused just nothing but problems within our family. So now I've learned my own lesson and I backed off. That's the advice that I share with my patients is nobody wants to be told. If you feel like you know something that you want to help, then you can ask, maybe, “Is it okay if I offer a piece of advice here? Is it okay if I share something here that I've learned?” They don't really want to know. Then you don't want to be told what to do either.
Dr. Chris Miller
(47:16)
If you're doing something halfway in life and someone comes and tells you, “You're running the wrong way, you should change your stance.” I didn't ask you for that right now. So I totally appreciate that now. So I just lead by example, and this is who I am, this is what I do. I don't even talk about it a lot. People aren't interested, I don't want to be the annoying person at the family dinner. So I just do my thing and live a good life and let them do their thing, no judgment, and let it be. So that has worked best for me. But it took a long time to get to that point.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(47:48)
That was a virtuoso solo performance. You hit all the right notes on that one. That's exactly where the voice of experience came through loud and clear. That's where you wind up, realizing that people do not want to be told, and they don't want people drop in their life, playing holier than thou. I became vegan when I was 34. When I was 20, the 70-year-old me appeared in a puff of smoke and wag its finger at my 20-year-old. Get out of here, man, I like my burgers.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(48:22)
That doesn't work. What does work is doing it yourself and setting the example. The less you say, the better. Bring enough vegan chili for everybody. Hey, Julie, here help yourself. Our guests, our guests around the table, they're bringing the vegetable from the whole store or whatever. Let the food do the talking. But also don't feel attacked or marginalized. We're talking about your life. A few weeks ago, but God forbid you get a heart attack or a stroke. It's only you and in that hospital. It's not your daughter-in-law. It's not the people at work, it's not your Aunt Sally, it's you.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(49:03)
You're talking about your arteries, your breast tissue, your prostate gland, your impending stroke. Every meal makes a difference. Your arteries don't care where you are, they just want to know what is in the bloodstream and the next meal you just are going to eat. That's the only thing that matters, do thine own self, be true their own arteries, be true. Just quietly many have a great meal and enjoy yourself. If anybody wants to know, they'll ask. The example you set, especially as you get healthier and you get off your medication etc., they'll ask. You never know, it may have been somebody across the table. Three years later, they heard, “Hey. Oh, Dr. Furman.”
Dr. Michael Klaper
(49:44)
They read his book and boom, they become vegan years later. You never even know it. That's fine. Just let the power of your example spread out and people hear or they won't. It's not your life to live for them. You've got your own life to live, do it as best and healthily as you can. Everyone else will take care of themselves.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(50:07)
That's exactly right. I think people don't want to be judged. So sometimes you have families that are saboteurs. So they think that you eating healthier is somehow in judgment of them saying, “Well, do you mean that now I'm not eating healthy and that I'm not …” So the people are always looking for ways to defend their bad habits. So I think it's how you said, you're just focused on you and just defuse the situation. It was like, “No, I just know that I need to do this so I don't end up in a place because,” maybe you could say, “I have propensity for this or my family history is this.”
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(50:45)
You could even blame your doctors, like, “My doctor put me on this diet. I got to do what my doctor says.” That's fine, just deflect and defuse. That's an easy way to get people who tend to be a bit more hostile. But over time, many people become interested or they just ignore it. The unfortunate thing is if you're married to someone who won't make those changes, you may be feel like you're living isolated lives. That's where it's really important to get a community somehow online or in your local community to get that support group so that you feel and continue to have that external motivation and support. I would say the one thing that I really want to emphasize is children. But as parents, guys, it's just so important that we start these little ones on healthy habits so that we don't infuse them with a future with chronic disease.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(51:31)
It's occurring earlier, and they're getting sicker, and they're dying earlier. That motivation alone would make me keep doing this till the day I die. But it's just so important that we allow our children to have the opportunity and the choice to be healthy. They are too little to be making those food choices because we live in a society and environment that's food addiction. They make food, they market to small children to build brand loyalty at early age. There's reasons there are cartoons on cereal boxes, there are reasons there are cartoons in things and polar bears on Cola-Cola.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:08)
I mean there's reasons for that, it invokes an emotion, a memory, makes people identify and want more. Please do our best as as parents to help and defend our children and incorporate those healthy habits. So that's my my spiel on the kids. But-
Dr. Michael Klaper
(52:27)
Beautiful points. My friend, Dr. Doug Lyall, he's got a three-word response for people who say, “Why do you eat like this?” He says, “Works for me.”
Dr. Chris Miller
(52:36)
I like that.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:36)
I love that, I'm going to get a t-shirt.
Dr. Chris Miller
(52:38)
I love that too.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:40)
Works for me.
Dr. Chris Miller
(52:40)
I love that too.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:40)
That's great.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(52:40)
That's all him. Yes.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:46)
That's brilliant. I really do need a t-shirt that says, “It just works for me.”
Dr. Chris Miller
(52:49)
Yeah. That diffuses it right there. So that's it. That's great.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:54)
Read the palm, it works for me. Okay. Let's stop.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(52:56)
Right, right.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(52:59)
Just a few other things too, some other good habits people are mentioning here is that she says, Charlotte says, “I just make sure there's nothing in the house that I shouldn't eat. I always tell my patients your home should be your safe zone. A good example is high end nut butter with dates. If I have it in the house, I just eat too much so I just don't buy it.” That's exactly right.
Dr. Chris Miller
(53:19)
There you go. That's what I do too. That's a great tip.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(53:21)
Awesome. Clara says, she read somewhere that kids eat more vegetables if they have a placemat with veggies, maybe something like a picture behind the Dr. Miller or veggies with funny faces. They can be drawn with parents and kids. Actually at the HealthyHumanRevolution.com website, I have an entire superhero cookbook I created with coloring and everything. 57 tips how to get kids to eat more vegetables because I really think if we can get the little ones on the healthy bandwagon, this is a fight for life, guys, we can actually do this. Anything there to help that we can do, that's absolutely 100%. Then just I think our final question just real quick here might be interesting.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(54:00)
I'm hoping to lose weight. I have 40 pounds to go. I run and lift, so she's active. But I'm afraid of losing muscle, not fat when I eat in a calorie deficit. Are there tips or macro goals or sites that you can help me with guidance on this? So any suggestions from either of you?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(54:15)
Have one protein containing dish every day, have a lentil stew, a bean burrito, a hummus, keep your protein levels up, plant-based protein. Don't worry about the rest. Keep your belly full of the soups and the salads. That's where the weight loss comes from. It doesn't come in the gym, pumping iron. It's a good thing to do for your muscles, but it doesn't result in weight loss. Weight loss happens at the table, filling your belly up with the soups and the salads and the low calorie density foods. So just do that and keep working out, add some protein to your diet, your body will reshape itself beautifully.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(54:49)
Absolutely. I agree.
Dr. Chris Miller
(54:51)
I totally agree. I totally agree with that. That's exactly the right thing to do. Sometimes when you add, you just start adding exercise, especially the more intense it is. You find you get a little hungrier or you start finding yourself wanting to eat more, even though it's supposed to suppress your appetite a little bit. So if that's happening to you, then you do want to be mindful of that. Do what Dr. Klaper just said, have that big protein rich meal, lentils or tofu or whatever it is, every day.
Dr. Chris Miller
(55:13)
Then have your vegetables ready to go and be mindful if all of a sudden, you have this crazy big appetite. Because if your goal is weight loss, then you should maybe tone down your workouts just a little bit and lose that weight and add the resistance training to build the muscle back on, but just be a little mindful. There's ways you can tweak that that might help you. Yeah.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(55:31)
There's a bunch of so much information on science on maintaining and growth of muscle as we even age. So really interesting studies. Even elderly individuals can build and maintain muscle mass as well as someone in their 20s and 30s. So continue to do your exercises. But like Dr. Klaper said, you're just eating the healthy habit, eating those healthy foods will take care of itself. Build up the protein a bit more, consuming the beans and things. You should be good to go. Well, thank you both. Any final words that you'd like to say to our audience before we check off for the day?
Dr. Michael Klaper
(56:09)
It's just food, be easy with yourself. But keep your eye on the prize. Keep your belly full of good things and your taste will align with them. You'll be a healthy person who will stay out of the clutches of people like us.
Dr. Chris Miller
(56:25)
I love the saying, “No drama.” It helps me so much. I want to share that with all of you guys. So no drama. So I can say, “Oh my gosh, I over ate. I did this. I did that.” But no drama, it is what it is. I move forward. As soon as I say those words, I drop it, and I'm moving forward already. It's tremendously helped me. So that's my one final little tip is to take off the drama in why we eat, good or bad.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(56:46)
Exactly, exactly. It's freeing when you have that attitude. So very good. Well, thank you both. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Again, we are here every Thursday, same place, same time. If you need help with the plant-based diet, if you have chronic disease, surely you want to see Dr. Klaper, myself or Dr. Miller. Dr. Klapper who's only knows everything there, and then with Dr. Miller who is brilliant in her own right, but she's a really good in autoimmune disease. Let me tell you, you guys, check it out.
Dr. Laurie Marbas
(57:18)
Head over to PlantBasedTelehealth.com and we'll be happy to see you individually and work with you on your goals. So thanks, everyone. Have a blessed day. Have a good night or good afternoon.
Dr. Chris Miller
(57:29)
Thanks, everyone. Thanks for those awesome questions.
Dr. Michael Klaper
(57:31)
Thank you, everybody. Thank you, well done.
*Recorded on 7.02.20